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29th July 2017

Before we start the interview, Steve is shown a copy of his previous interview I did with him for beatleg magazine in 2016 and he picks out a picture where he notices he doesn’t look very happy. After a brief consideration he realises why and recounts the story.


SH: Oh that was a weird gig! That’s Will Lee’s bass neck and I’m watching him like a hawk because he had written all the arrangements. That gig was also filmed and recorded and they were trying to stiff me by not paying me the correct rate. They didn’t tell me that they were making a video going in and they had Jimmy and Jerry Vivino, Jack Petruzelli…all these great musicians but I was angry because I had been duped into doing this because I didn’t know what it was. I had done a rehearsal and I wasn’t told it was a live album and a video. So put a union contractor the gig and they had to pa me the real money. I haven’t spoken to Donovan since. (laughs)


Q: When we last talked, you mentioned Professor James Blades’ book Percussion Instruments and their History – a book I have since read on your recommendation…


SH: It’s a great read isn’t it?


Q: Fantastic. He writes about the drum as a communicator – a voice – particularly in the history of the tribes in Africa and I was wondering what, if anything, when you are playing, what are you trying to communicate or convey to the audience?


SH: Passion would be the first word; certainly love and there are divisions of it. I play from the heart, not from the head and I strive for it not to be surreal. I don’t like music that I have to really think about and that’s why I like to get the rehearsals part of it out of the way so I can play from the heart.


Q: Whenever I’ve seen you play, you’ve used a basic kit…


SH: Oh no, you haven’t seen my rig. (See pic above of Steve's full kit). What you’ve seen me play is basic but they are hired kits; my own rig s fairly large. (Steve digs out a photo from his iphone and shows me) I separate the two racks because of problems I have from time to time with my shoulder. The kit is all vintage Black Galaxy Ludwig from 1968 and the snare is from 1964. I found it in Stockholm, Sweden and I had been trying to buy it for nine years – that’s how passionate I am about it. The set I bout n 1972 n Drum City, Shaftsbury Avenue in London and over the years I’ve endorsed Pearl, Tama, Gretch and lots of different kits but really truthfully, this is the only kit I really recorded with Wings, Elton…everybody. Don’t get me wrong, Pearl make fantastic drums and I have a couple of Pear kits and I will always play them. What they are is consistent whereas other company’s kits are fantastic but not as consistent. With the Maple series, I can take them out of the box and they sound like me in fifteen minutes because I know exactly what they do. What was great with them initially as well is that they put my specifications into their computer so if I was going for a one-off in say, Italy, I could just send my name and that was the kit that was there when I arrived. Well…not always Italy to be fair….(laughs)


Q: Yeah I know what you mean. I’ve done a few festivals and shows in Italy and their organizational skills are not quite….Germany may have been a better example.


SH: Germany and Japan and very similar in terms of their expertise and their level of professionalism. The thing I find about both countries is that if you do business with them, they remember it. I’ve actually had situations where I go to Berlin and I have the same kit I had when I was in Hannover – not similar, the same one.


Q: You can recognize kits you’ve played before?


SH: Yeah because there’s usually something about them, a notch in a shell or something. Just once in a while you get a rare finish as well. I’ve had a DW kit show up at the Fillmore in San Francisco nearly every time I play and I don’t know how. I assume they use the same backline company and they remember it.


Q: As with all musical equipment, here are a variety of sticks and heads these days compared to say the eighties when you went into a shop and asked for a pinstripe or batter or a spot. Steve Gadd uses a wooden hoop on his snare for example: Have you tried anything different or innovative and does it really make a difference?


SH: It does! That particular wooden hoop you are referring too of Steve’s (he plays Yamaha) is a gorgeous drum and I believe it’s Anton Figs’ model. It has an incredible cross-stick sound which he uses a lot.  I know he uses it with Paul Simon and Eric Clapton and because it cuts through, it’s a much purer sound and of course the original drums had wooden hoops – wooden flange hoops. One thing I talk about when I talk about the history of the drum is that we accept the modern drum kit as it I but hardly anyone knows why it looks like that.


Q: It’s not even a hundred years old is it?


SH: No but it’s getting close.


Q: Would you mind going into it for us?


SH: It’s very simple – silent film. Silent film is very boring to watch without accompaniment. There is no music track so the would hire musicians to play along with the film but there wasn’t very much room at the cinemas and the percussion section at that time was a separate bass drum, a timpanist, separate snare drum player, and held cymbals, suspended cymbals, Chinese wood temple blocks and the xylophone which were all normal in the orchestra. That was ok if there was an orchestra pit like in a theatre but there was no such thing in a cinema. The ad a little space where you could get an upright piano and a percussionist so they made a smaller bass drum and put a pedal on it and the first hi-hat was called a sock cymbal because it was just a pedal and the cymbals were down on the floor – you wouldn’t think about playing it with a stick. Then they added the suspended cymbal, temple blocks over the bass drum and a Chinese tom-tom and that’s all they had. That’d be about 1926: prior to that it didn’t exist.


Q: Louie Jordan did a similar thing in the mid-forties where he scaled the Big Bands down to a five piece and arranged all their music to suit.


SH: Yes he did. Billboard magazine as a matter of fact interviewed me when Chuck Berry passed away because I played with him over the years many times. They refer to Chuck as the Grandfather of Rock ‘n Roll but Louie Jordan is the guy who first played Rock ‘n Roll.


Q: I’m with you on that one.


SH: I know. It was 1947 and the birth of it is very simple. The drummers were still playing swing but the electric guitar players were playing straight-eight.


Q: The clue is in the title isn’t it Rhythm and Blues.


SH: Exactly! Put the two together and you get Rock ‘n’ Roll. A good friend of mine Earl Okin opened for Wings on the British tour I did because Paul called me and asked if I knew a single act.  Said I knew of Earl and that Paul would love him but I wasn’t so sure about the rest of the free-world because he’s very weird. He wore a three piece suit, bowler hat, spats and he can imitate all of the famous trumpet players with his mouth. He plays guitar, piano and sings and is a comedian – a tremendous talent, you should look him up and the BBC are currently doing a documentary about him. He’s also the world’s foremost authority on Duke Ellington and he’s the guy who turned me on to Louie Jordan. In his apartment in the Portabello Road, he has a room which is floor to ceiling 78’s – it’s insanity. He has this incredibly expensive turntable with air-glide on it – fourteen thousand pounds or something stupid – and anyway he said ‘This is Rock ‘n Roll.’ He played it and it blew my mind because I’d never heard it before. In the article in Billboard, they used me as the lead off and I tell this story of the first time I played with him in Mexico City (see previous interview for this story) and I was talking to Earl about this in London recently and I disagree that he was the inventor of Rock ‘n’ Roll. I know John Lennon famously said that but it was really Louie Jordan and Louie Prima was there as well with Jump, Jive An’ Wail. What I didn’t know which Earl told me on this last trip was that Louie Jordan’s guitar player taught Chuck Berry when he was eight years old. Isn’t that amazing? There’s much more to it than meets the eye.


Q: There is and of course Chuck nicked the intro to Louis Jordan’s Ain’t That Just Like A Woman for his intro to Johnny B. Goode.


SH: Yes and if you talk to Johnnie Johnson, Johnnie Johnson wrote all the songs. I was lucky enough to play with him in Washington DC in a tribute to Muddy Waters. On a break I asked him if we could talk later about Chuck and he said ‘No problem’. I told him how much I admired Chuck first of all but I did say a few other things. He said ‘There’s a couple of things you need to know; the first is that Chuck was twenty-even years old before he had a hit and the label thought he sounded too old so they sped all the records up so when you play with Chuck, everything is a little bit slower than you remember it and they are in different keys. Secondly, they are all in horn keys because I wrote them all.’




Q: I’d like to ask you about a few drummers because drummers are probably the least listened to in any band.

SH: Yeah. The guitarists and the singers and the horn players get the adulation…and the sex! (laughs)


Q: I’d like your opinion of them, what we should listen for in their playing or what you hear that we may not.


SH: Yeah.


Q: Charlie Watts


SH: Undeniably one of the greatest Rock ‘n’ Roll drummers of all time. A huge influence on me – a British influence anyway. His approach is unique and he’s also really a Jazz player. Jazz is his first love and his teachers were all Jazz so it’s no surprise that his side band is a Big Band, I grew up with Big Band, that’s what my Dad does; tenor sax and clarinet and my Mum was a singer so the band rehearsals were in our house. The next door neighbour was the drummer so I had no chance. My mother jokes that I was probably playing drums in her womb and she also says that as soon as I could crawl, I would crawl across the driveway to the neighbour and just sit in the room with the drums. I can still smell it when I close my eyes and think about it. Charlie was an early influence on me as was Tony Meehan with The Shadows and then Ringo but at the same time I was listening to Joe Morello (Dave Brubeck Quartet)and Cannonball Adderley’s African Waltz and stuff like that so I had some pretty deep stuff inside of me before I even picked up a pair of sticks. Charlie though is unlike anybody else. I can emulate some of what he does but some of the most endearing examples of his drumming are almost impossible to duplicate because it’s just him and The Rolling Stones as a unit are like that. I’ve be in a studio where they’ve had the tapes and somebody said ‘Listen to this’ and they put up the bass, drums and lead and rhythm guitar separately and you’d think you were listening to four different songs. It’s only when you put them together that it creates such an animal. If you put two of them up –say the drums and the guitar – it’s not quite lined up but the whole thing is just amazing. That’s unusual in itself; you can’t find that in too many places. The other thing Charlie does is an old technique from the forties and fifties recording. Back then, the bass player and the drummer would share a mic – usually a U47 – which would be between the hi-hat and the stand-up bass and which also is by the way, the only reason that even today, the bass player traditionally stands on the hi-hat side; it’s a throwback to that. Some people contest that but I think not. I’ve seen old recordings where they were working with four tracks and limited mic-ing and you made sure you got the hi-hat and snare. Charlie lifts the hi-hat when he hits the snare and the only reason for that is that the snare sounds bigger if the hi-hat is not with it and that’s a technique from recording in the fifties. Of course these days they have close mic-ing on everything so they don’t really need it.


Q: Mick Fleetwood


SH: I was lucky enough to see him play with John Mayall & the Bluesbeakers. There was a club in Windsor called the Rcky-Tick and my Mum knew the owners. Technically I wasn’t allowed in there but they would sit me in the back of the room on the upright piano, my Mum would give the guy a fiver (five pounds) and he’d bring me a coke and a bag of crisps every half an hour. I think it was a Monday night and it was a different band every week. The Bluesbreakers I saw with Mick Fleetwood, Keith Hartley, Aynsley Dunbar…I was twelve years old. Mick is unique as well and you can hear Rumours every time I go to a floor tom. I use that syncopated riding the floor tom with the backbeat. Ringo used it but Mick took it to another level. Mick plays a lot on just the grooves themselves. Tremendous player - never met him.


Q: Let’s cut to Ringo as you mentioned him. He’s often dismissed as ‘the drummer in the Beatles’ but I personally think that he’s one of the best in the sixties.


SH: I would say without question, defensively, it’s very hard to play Ringo.


Q: As you should know.


SH: Yes. Because I played with paul, people make the assumption that I know all the material but it’s not true. I’ve now decided to study it very heavily because I’m called upon to do it. I belong to a very small club of people (who have played with Beatles) and I’ve decided to honour it and embrace it rather than deny it. I asked Paul directly saying ‘What do you think about all these festivals selling the Beatles and everybody imitating them?’ He said he didn’t really like it and the I asked him about his ex-members participating in them and he said he didn’t care for that either and he’d rather I didn’t but that he can’t stop anybody doing it. Then I read an interview with Paul where they asked him if he had any favourite bass players and he said  - and I quote: “Well, not especially but Will Lee comes to mind.” Now Will Lee leads The Fab Four which has probably made more money off of the back of The Beatles than any other single band on the planet at which point I said ‘Ok Paul, all bets are off’’ Now, I don’t do everything that comes my way but there are some wonderful musicians out there that have made a living out of imitating that work and I know how hard it is to play. The thing about Ringo is that he’s left-handed but he plays a right-handed kit so he leads with the left whereas most of us lead with the right. He starts his fills on the floor tom and works back which is the opposite direction to most people so to begin with, you are out of the box.


Q: So how did you approach it when you did the Rock For Kampuchea?


SH: I asked Paul if he cared if they were exact and he said no. We went up to Scotland when I first joined the band and that was lie throwing you in the deep end with Paul seeing how quickly you could learn to swim and it was a great time; I really enjoyed it. I used to wake up in the morning and smack myself because I couldn’t believe it was happening. You’re talking about a pre-pubescent kid who had a poster of Paul on his bedroom wall and I’m thinking ‘How did this happen?’ The first few songs I recorded with Paul I asked him what he had in mind because he’s a fabulous drummer actually and he explained it to me. We cut a couple of tracks (I forget which) and a few days later I said ‘I hate to say this’ because we were already into a few days recording ‘but it sounds like me emulating somebody else – it’s not really what I would play.’ So he asked me what I wanted to do and I said I’d like to tackle them again. Now, we were not using click tracks but I replaced the drums on the first song and then he said ‘Eh…I’m going to go and have a cup of tea now – go ahead.’ He gave me carte blanche to do that and I replaced the drums on the first three songs. It wasn’t quite that easy – I’m making light of it - but it was me saying ‘This is me emulating you’ and after that, with very few exceptions, he just said ‘Do your thing.’ After that, I did stuff live that I still do such as Got To Get You Into My Life which I still do. In the pre-chorus I play a double-drop and I sang harmonies that were not on the recordings. I got to the point where he was giving me the thumbs up and the green light on a lot of ideas so that enabled me to become myself within the band so I never really thought until I played in Beatles cover band what playing the Ringo parts was actually like. Now I have to study it and it’s not wrong but it’s just not what Ringo played. A lot of people are so familiar with those recordings that there is always going to be some smart-arse in the audience who knows how every fill is on every track and it used to happen with Joe Cocker as well. There was one guy, I’ll never forget it, at a festival in Milan. I couldn’t get my eyes off of him because he was obviously a drummer and he knew all the fills. Were playing ‘Up Where We Belong’ and there is that bit in the middle (sings drum fill) and this guy in the audience is playing air drums and I don’t play it as the recording and he looks at me after it and just slowly shakes his head. (laughs)


Q: I’d like to ask you about Clem Cattini. Very underrated in my book and he keeps himself to himself.


SH: Yes. He did a lot of sessions.


Q: Forty-four UK No. 1 singles.


SH: Yeah and there is another unsung hero of drumming and I can’t remember his name but he played on all the Dave Clark Five hits. (Bobby Graham)


Q: Well you can see in the videos that Dave Clark wasn’t a great drummer.


SH: Yes and in interviews he comes across as the big ‘I am’. He looks like the devil too me. He bought all those BBC tapes and just sat on them.


Q: He’s still sitting on them. Clem though seemed to have something that others didn’t which is why he was first call for so many producers.


SH: A great sound and although I don’t know him, he was apparently a really cool guy to hang around with: Funny and engaging, open to suggestions and extremely technically competent.


Q: The Hal Blaine of the UK.


SH: Yeah, absolutely for want of a better way of putting it. Fabulous drummer.


At this point we have to wrap the interview up but Steve grabs my notes and starts going through the list I have noted of other drummers I’d like him to talk about.


SH: Gene Krupa…staggering. I think he was a dancer as well. A lot of dancers back then were drummers – Gene Kelly was a great drummer. Have you seen that footage of Gene Krupa and  think Buddy Rich where he’s dancing and playing the bass drum with his feet on the front to front end?


Q: Astonishing.


SH: It is astonishing.


Q: I think Fred Astaire played as well.


SH: Yeah and can often tell from Tap dancing. You can see their understanding. There’s a name that’s not on your list that I used to love to watch to play and that‘s Keef Hartley. I saw him play with John Mayall and he was a lovely drummer.


Q: Why him?


SH: I saw him play one day where he was playing a staggeringly fast single pedal bass drum pattern and detuning the bass drum as he was playing it. I had never seen that before nor since. I think he was doing that with the keys; the only other way of doing it would be to put a plastic tube into the sound hole if you have solid heads. Then you blow and the heads expand or contract when you blow in it. I’ve seen people do that in the fifties and I saw a guy in Florida do it recently. He had four tubes going to four drums and I thought ‘What’s wrong with this poor guy?’ I thought he was on oxygen or something. (laughs) (looks at list again) Cozy Powell…what can you say? Roger Taylor is brilliant but we didn’t get off personally to a good start. I had the same thing with Stewart Copeland. Carl Palmer had the heaviest drums in the world. There was a 13x9” tom tom in Keith Emerson’s apartment in London a friend of mine was sub-letting and he told me to try and lift it – I couldn’t get it off the floor!


Q: Steve, we have to wrap up. Thanks so much for this.


SH: Anything we didn’t get too?


Q: Lot’s but I’m sure we’ll meet again soon.


SH: We will. Thanks.



*Donovan With Special Guests: A Benefit For A Race For Tomorrow
31st January, 2008



スティーヴ・ホリー  インタビュー2017






































SH:そのとおり!2つの言葉を合体しているんだ。ロックンロールもそうさ。僕の親友でアール・オーキンてのがいるんだけど、彼はイギリス・ツアーでウィングスの前座をやってくれたんだ。ポールが僕に誰か前座に相応しい人はいないかなと訊いてきたから、アールを推薦したらポールが気に入ったんだ。彼はちょっと変わった奴だったから、自信はなかったんだけどね。3ピーススーツを着て、ボウラーハットを被り、スパッツを身に着けて、あらゆる有名トランペッターのプレイを口真似できるんだ。彼自身もギター、ピアノを弾いて歌うんだけど、コメディアンでもある。凄い才能を持っているんだよ。最近、BBCで彼のドキュメンタリーが放映されたところさ。彼はまたデューク・エリントンにかけては世界最初のオーソリティでもある。彼が僕にルイ・ジョーダンを教えてくれたんだ。彼はポートベロ通りにあるアパートに住んでいて、78回転SPのためだけの部屋を持っているんだ。異常だよ。14000ポンドもした物凄く高価なターンテーブルを持っているんだ。その彼が「これがロックンロールだ」と言って聴かせてくれたのがルイ・ジョーダンなんだ。そんなものは聴いたことがなかったから、感動したよ。ビルボードの記事では、この下りは導入部に使われているよ。彼と初めてメキシコシティでプレイした時の話をしたんだ(スティーヴとの2016年beatleg誌でのインタビュー参照)。最近、ロンドンで彼に会った時にこの話をまたしたんだけどね。僕はチャック・ベリーがロックンロールを発明したんじゃないと主張したんだ。ジョン・レノンはそう言っているけどね。本当はルイ・ジョーダンとルイ・パメラがやった「Jump, Jive An’ Wail」が最初なんだ。アールが言ってくれるまで知らなかったことだけど、ルイ・ジョーダンのバンドのギタープレイヤーが当時8歳だったチャック・ベリーにこの音楽を教えたというんだ。驚きの事実だろ?文献に残されているよりももっと凄い事実があるんだよ。


Q:チャックはルイ・ジョーダンの「 Ain’t That Just Like A Woman」を「Johnny B. Goode」のイントロに使っていますしね。











SH:まぎれもなく、永遠の偉大なるロックンロール・ドラマーの一人だね。僕も凄く影響を受けたよ。イギリス人は誰でもそうだと思う。彼のアプローチはユニークでね、実はジャズ出身なんだ。ジャズが彼の好みで、彼はジャズ・ドラマーに習ったんだ。だから彼のサイドワークがジャズのビッグ・バンドというのは驚きには当たらないね。僕も親父のやってたビッグ・バンドで鍛えられたんだよ。親父がテナー・サックスとクラリネット、母親がボーカルだった。だからリハーサルは自宅でやってたんだ。お隣さんがドラマーでね。だからそのバンドでは僕にはチャンスはなかった。母は僕が彼女の子宮でドラムを叩いていたなんて冗談を言ってた。彼女は僕に道路を渡ってお隣さんに行けるようになったら、すぐにドラムキットに座るんだよ、とも言ってた。今でも目を瞑れば、その部屋の匂いを思い出せるよ。チャーリーは、シャドウズのトニー・ミーハンと共に、初期に影響を受けた人だ。それからリンゴとジョー・モレロ(デイヴ・ブルーベック・カルテット)だった。キャノンボール・アダレイの「African Waltz」とかにも影響を受けた。僕が実際にスティックを持つまでにはそんな人たちに凄く影響を受けていたんだ。チャーリーは他の人とは違っていた。彼のプレイは真似できるけど、彼の魅力と言うべき何とも惹きつけるニュアンスは到底真似できないものだよ。あれは彼だけのものだし、ローリング・ストーンズというバンドもそういうことで成立しているバンドなんだ。彼らの録音したテープがあるスタジオに居た時のことさ。「これを聴いてみるかい?」と言って、ベース、ドラム、リード・ギター、リズム・ギターを別々に聴かせてくれたんだ。まるで別々の4曲を聴いたみたいだったよ。まるで1匹の動物を生み出すみたいに、それらを合体させるんだ。ドラムとギターを合体させるだけじゃまだ実体を現わさない。でも完全に合体した時には、それはもう驚きでしかないんだ。そんなことは非現実の世界でね。どこでもそうやってるわけじゃないんだ。チャーリーについて言えるもう一つのことは、40年代や50年代からのテクニックをずっと維持しているってことだね。当時はドラマーとベーシストが1本のマイクを分け合っていたんだ。マイクは大抵U47だった。ハイハットとウッドベースの間にそれをセットしていた。今でもベーシストはハイハット側に立つだろう?当時の名残だね。その是非を議論しているふしがあるけど、僕はまったく疑問には思わないね。僕は4トラックの、マイクが限られていた時代からずっとレコーディングを見てきたからね。そうすると、ハイハットとスネアの音が際立つんだ。チャーリーはスネアを叩く瞬間にはハイハットは叩かないんだ。そうすればスネアの音がより際立つからさ。それが50年代からのテクニックなんだよ。今じゃ、どのキットでもマイクで拾えるようになっているからその必要はないんだけどね。












SH:ポールに訊いたんだ。今までのドラマーのようにやってほしいか、って。彼はノーと言った。バンドに加入して最初にスコットランドに行った。ポールが見ている中で、水泳を一生懸命覚えながら、深い芝生に寝転ぶという素晴らしい時間を過ごした。ほんとに楽しかった。朝起きたら自分の意識をはっきりさせるんだ。何が起こるか分からなかったからね。ポールのポスターを壁に貼ってた、ませたガキがさ、「一体これは現実なのか?」って思うよね?ポールと初めて曲をレコーディングした時に彼に訊いたんだ。どうですか?って。彼自身も優れたドラマーだし、きちんと応えてくれたよ。何曲か仕上げて、その数日後に彼に言ったんだ。「これは言いたくないことなんだけど」って。もう既にレコーディングに入って数日経っていたからね。「でもドラムの音が誰か他人が叩いているようにしか聞こえないんだ。僕のプレイじゃないみたいなんだよ。」すると彼はどうしたいのか言ってみてよ、と言ってくれた。僕はもう一度やり直させてほしいと言ったんだ。僕たちは正確なテンポを測っていたわけじゃなかったから、1曲目のドラムを差し替えた。するとポールが言ったんだ。「んー・・・お茶でも飲むか。ちょっと休憩。」って。彼は僕にチャンスをくれた。僕はレコーディング済みの3曲のドラムをやり直した。大変な作業だったけど、自分に「おまえらしく」と言い聞かせていたよ。ポールは「やってみろ」とだけ言ってくれた。僕は活き活きとした感じでやった。「Got To Get You Into My Life」もそんな感じでね。コーラスも練習したんだ。レコーディングには採用されなかったけどね。ポールが僕のやりたいようにさせてくれたことが嬉しかった。それでバンドの一員になれた気がしたんだ。ビートルズのカバー・バンドでプレイするまで、リンゴのプレイがどんなだったのかということに気づかなかった。今、それを学ぼうとしているし、決して悪くないことだと思うけど、それをやったところでリンゴの通りにはできない。ビートルズと言えば世界中の人が慣れ親しんでいるし、曲のどんな細かな部分までも憶えている人もいる。ジョー・コッカーのバージョンまで含めてね。以前、ミラノのフェスティバルで見かけた人物がいたんだ。僕の目は彼に釘付けだった。彼はたぶんドラマーで、すべてのレパートリーのドラムプレイを知り尽くしていた。「愛と青春の旅立ち」を演奏したんだけど、中間のところで(ドラム・フィルを口ずさむ)、オーディエンスの中にいた彼は、そのパートをエアドラムで叩いたんだ。僕が叩いていないパターンでね。その後で僕と目が合った彼は、もうゆっくり頭を振っているだけだったよ(笑)。




































*・・・スペシャル・ゲストがドノヴァンだった。2008年1月31日、「A Benefit For A Race For Tomorrow(明日には人種差別をなくそう)」コンサートでのこと。

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